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Comments on: Jingoism! That’s the Ticket! http://firasd.org/weblog/2006/04/22/thomas-energy Letters from the Zeitgeist Fri, 21 Nov 2008 11:51:37 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6 By: Firas http://firasd.org/weblog/2006/04/22/thomas-energy#comment-3092 Firas Fri, 28 Apr 2006 21:27:07 +0000 http://firasd.org/weblog/2006/04/22/thomas-energy#comment-3092 Mark Jaquith: yeah, I thought of <a href="http://pag.csail.mit.edu/~adonovan/dilbert/dilbert-19-02-2006.gif">that Dilbert strip</a> too! The very reasoning of 'less oil buying = less $$$ for terrorists' is suspect. There is also a more complex issue of whether removing the governments of Middle Eastern states—reducing corruption, economic imbalance, dictatorship and the like—would actually produce a more liberal set of states. I doubt it; I think the strongest political force in Arab countries besides the current governments is religious extremists. Specifically, I think the domestic 'opposition' is made of people who'd produce <em>more</em> of a security/human rights/etc. headache than the current governing classes (eg., the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, Al Qaeda in Saudi Arabia.) But switching from petroleum to other energy sources is not just a 'national independence' issue, it's also a goal for the world, which is an obvious point to think of when quoting Neil Armstrong. Bill Clinton <a href="http://www.ppionline.org/ndol/print.cfm?contentid=253507">said</a> in June '05: <blockquote> Anyway, so I think we start with security, go to the economy, and then make the same sorts of arguments to our friends in the developing world, and then you have to set up the mechanisms to do it. For example, Sir John Browne of British Petroleum, he's trying to make British Petroleum into an energy company, not an oil company. And I told the Saudis the last time I was over there that if I were the king of Saudi Arabia I would buy half of the solar capacity in the world, start at the Equator and work out. And I would make my country the energy capital of the world, not the oil capital of the world. It would change the whole world's attitude; it would enable them to affect a transition, to democratize, to open up without having a collapse. </blockquote> Wish we had his type back in the White House. Mark Jaquith: yeah, I thought of that Dilbert strip too! The very reasoning of ‘less oil buying = less $$$ for terrorists’ is suspect.

There is also a more complex issue of whether removing the governments of Middle Eastern states—reducing corruption, economic imbalance, dictatorship and the like—would actually produce a more liberal set of states. I doubt it; I think the strongest political force in Arab countries besides the current governments is religious extremists. Specifically, I think the domestic ‘opposition’ is made of people who’d produce more of a security/human rights/etc. headache than the current governing classes (eg., the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, Al Qaeda in Saudi Arabia.)

But switching from petroleum to other energy sources is not just a ‘national independence’ issue, it’s also a goal for the world, which is an obvious point to think of when quoting Neil Armstrong.

Bill Clinton said in June ‘05:

Anyway, so I think we start with security, go to the economy, and then make the same sorts of arguments to our friends in the developing world, and then you have to set up the mechanisms to do it. For example, Sir John Browne of British Petroleum, he’s trying to make British Petroleum into an energy company, not an oil company. And I told the Saudis the last time I was over there that if I were the king of Saudi Arabia I would buy half of the solar capacity in the world, start at the Equator and work out. And I would make my country the energy capital of the world, not the oil capital of the world. It would change the whole world’s attitude; it would enable them to affect a transition, to democratize, to open up without having a collapse.

Wish we had his type back in the White House.

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By: Mark Jaquith http://firasd.org/weblog/2006/04/22/thomas-energy#comment-3075 Mark Jaquith Fri, 28 Apr 2006 02:51:06 +0000 http://firasd.org/weblog/2006/04/22/thomas-energy#comment-3075 <blockquote>To become energy independent and no longer rely on foreign oil would be like depriving Dracula of his blood supply: he would shrivel up and die.</blockquote> That's not exactly true (that terrorism would die). America was having to deal with Islamic terrorists 200 years ago, well before oil's influence. That being said, any money that goes to the Middle East for any purpose is likely to fund terrorism, even though it be indirectly. If we (and every other country in the world) were to cease buying Middle-Eastern oil, terrorists would likely be hit hard in the pocketbooks. Of course, it'll never happen. <a href="http://pag.csail.mit.edu/~adonovan/dilbert/dilbert-19-02-2006.gif" rel="nofollow">Someone will buy their oil</a>. They'll likely hate us (and England and France and Spain and every place with even a taste of Western values) no matter who buys their oil and ends up unofficially sponsoring them. Even if you buy into the idea that terrorists hate us only because we want their oil, do you think that their hatred would evaporate the instant we stopped buying it? If history has taught us anything, it's that these people know how to hold a grudge for 800 years or more. The benefit of energy independence won't be the elmination of terrorism or the elimination of America as a terrorist target. The benefit is economic. The benefit is that if Iran nukes Israel and Israel nukes Saudi Arabia, our economy doesn't dive quite as hard. If you want to help moderate the Middle East, let 'em eat freedom. Let 'em eat the Internet. Let 'em eat philosophy and a Liberal education. Let 'em eat a falafel stuffed with McDonald's french fries. They've been eating sand for centuries.

To become energy independent and no longer rely on foreign oil would be like depriving Dracula of his blood supply: he would shrivel up and die.

That’s not exactly true (that terrorism would die). America was having to deal with Islamic terrorists 200 years ago, well before oil’s influence. That being said, any money that goes to the Middle East for any purpose is likely to fund terrorism, even though it be indirectly. If we (and every other country in the world) were to cease buying Middle-Eastern oil, terrorists would likely be hit hard in the pocketbooks. Of course, it’ll never happen. Someone will buy their oil. They’ll likely hate us (and England and France and Spain and every place with even a taste of Western values) no matter who buys their oil and ends up unofficially sponsoring them.

Even if you buy into the idea that terrorists hate us only because we want their oil, do you think that their hatred would evaporate the instant we stopped buying it? If history has taught us anything, it’s that these people know how to hold a grudge for 800 years or more.

The benefit of energy independence won’t be the elmination of terrorism or the elimination of America as a terrorist target. The benefit is economic. The benefit is that if Iran nukes Israel and Israel nukes Saudi Arabia, our economy doesn’t dive quite as hard.

If you want to help moderate the Middle East, let ‘em eat freedom. Let ‘em eat the Internet. Let ‘em eat philosophy and a Liberal education. Let ‘em eat a falafel stuffed with McDonald’s french fries. They’ve been eating sand for centuries.

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By: Brian Dawes http://firasd.org/weblog/2006/04/22/thomas-energy#comment-3020 Brian Dawes Tue, 25 Apr 2006 17:48:37 +0000 http://firasd.org/weblog/2006/04/22/thomas-energy#comment-3020 Makes me sick! America has been quite happily plundering the world's resources for many years now arrogantly refusing to listen to anybody else. It seems that some level of realization is finally occurring - the world's resources are finite and even your beloved leader appears to have recognized this. But I fear it's too late. Makes me sick! America has been quite happily plundering the world’s resources for many years now arrogantly refusing to listen to anybody else. It seems that some level of realization is finally occurring - the world’s resources are finite and even your beloved leader appears to have recognized this. But I fear it’s too late.

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By: Firas http://firasd.org/weblog/2006/04/22/thomas-energy#comment-2989 Firas Mon, 24 Apr 2006 17:28:30 +0000 http://firasd.org/weblog/2006/04/22/thomas-energy#comment-2989 Well, the 'conservative' inclination—deciding that the best thing to do about other countries' issues is to ignore them—has a pretty respectable intellectual pedigree… but there's a difference between doing it for political stability and doing it to crash economies! Well, the ‘conservative’ inclination—deciding that the best thing to do about other countries’ issues is to ignore them—has a pretty respectable intellectual pedigree… but there’s a difference between doing it for political stability and doing it to crash economies!

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By: cameron aka desk003 http://firasd.org/weblog/2006/04/22/thomas-energy#comment-2955 cameron aka desk003 Sun, 23 Apr 2006 02:15:22 +0000 http://firasd.org/weblog/2006/04/22/thomas-energy#comment-2955 You have got to be shitting me. "Let 'em Eat Sand"? Fucking conservative morons. You have got to be shitting me. “Let ‘em Eat Sand”? Fucking conservative morons.

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